善观呀，你的意思大家都明白。

但也不至于表达成，佛陀一会儿是五蕴，一会儿是五取蕴呀。或者佛陀对自己是五蕴，对他人来说是五取蕴。

其实人们恐怕也只能攀缘佛陀的色蕴吧，人们怎么攀缘佛陀的名蕴呀

浪子无心

你这样会把弄的佛陀一会儿是五蕴，一会儿是五取蕴，对这个人上五蕴，对那个人是五取蕴的。

静默2008

这是正常的啊!同样的:

色蕴对凡夫来说可以是色取蕴,对解脱者来说就是色蕴了!

静默2008

如果色取蕴只能是色取蕴的状态,怎么解脱啊?

summertulip

At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "Monks, I will teach you the five aggregates & the five clinging-aggregates. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "Now what, monks, are the five aggregates?

"Whatever form is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: that is called the aggregate of form.

"Whatever feeling is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: that is called the aggregate of feeling.

"Whatever perception is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: that is called the aggregate of perception.

"Whatever (mental) fabrications are past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: those are called the aggregate of fabrications.

"Whatever consciousness is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: that is called the aggregate of consciousness.

"These are called the five aggregates.

"And what are the five clinging-aggregates?

"Whatever form — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: that is called form as a clinging-aggregate.

"Whatever feeling — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: that is called feeling as a clinging-aggregate.

"Whatever perception — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: that is called perception as a clinging-aggregate.

"Whatever (mental) fabrications — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — are clingable, offer sustenance, and are accompanied with mental fermentation: those are called fabrications as a clinging-aggregate.

"Whatever consciousness — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: that is called consciousness as a clinging-aggregate.

"These are called the five clinging-aggregates."

以上应如何理解呢?

善觀

 

节卅五：五取蕴

Pabc’upadanakkhandha: rupupadanakkhandho, vedanu-padanakkhandho, sabbupadanakkhandho, sankharupadanak-khandho, vibbanupadanakkhandho.

bc’upadanakkhandha: rupupadanakkhandho, vedanu-padanakkhandho, sabbupadanakkhandho, sankharupadanak-khandho, vibbanupadanakkhandho.

五取蕴：一、色取蕴；二、受取蕴；三、想取蕴；四、行取蕴；五、识取蕴。

节卅五之助读说明

五取蕴：这五法称为upadanakkhandha（取蕴），因为它们组成了执取的目标。佛陀说：‘无论是那一类与漏有关及会被执取的色，是过去、未来、现在等，这一切都称为色取蕴。’再次，对于其他四取蕴的定义也是如此。（《相应部》22:48/iii,48）在此，一切能被四取（见节七）所执取的五蕴成份皆名为取蕴。这包括了所有色蕴及属于世间的四名蕴。出世间的四名蕴并不属于取蕴，因为它们完全超越了执取的范围，也就是说它们不会成为贪或邪见的目标。

这五法称为upadanakkhandha（取蕴），因为它们组成了执取的目标。佛陀说：‘无论是那一类与漏有关及会被执取的色，是过去、未来、现在等，这一切都称为色取蕴。’再次，对于其他四取蕴的定义也是如此。（《相应部》22:48/iii,48）在此，一切能被四取（见节七）所执取的五蕴成份皆名为取蕴。这包括了所有色蕴及属于世间的四名蕴。出世间的四名蕴并不属于取蕴，因为它们完全超越了执取的范围，也就是说它们不会成为贪或邪见的目标。

所以準確地說，佛陀只有色蘊可以叫做色取蘊，受想行識不屬於取蘊，也正好證明了佛陀還有身苦受，但沒有心苦受。

浪子无心

佛陀的受想行识不能说是取蕴这是个常识。只不过，一切色蕴都是色取蕴，就没有色蕴了。

随便吧，大家就一起玩概念吧

善觀

色蘊可以是色蘊也可以是色取蘊，就看是不是被執取。

也就是在佛陀看來，色蘊就不是色取蘊。

一個事物有多種叫法，不是很正常的事麽？

浪子无心

笑一下。随便你怎么叫。

善觀

但是翻譯的話最好還是尊重原文，明明是五蘊的，不要翻譯成五取蘊。

你自己的理解可以在注裏面另外説明。

summertulip

谢谢善观兄的解答。依照我对以上英文定义的理解，五蕴在被执取的状态下，称为五取蕴。

具体到佛陀，因为已经灭除了对色蕴的执取贪著，那色蕴就只是色蕴了。

善觀

QUOTE:

6097以下是引用summertulip在2008-1-11 19:10:00的发言：
谢谢善观兄的解答。依照我对以上英文定义的理解，五蕴在被执取的状态下，称为五取蕴。

具体到佛陀，因为已经灭除了对色蕴的执取贪著，那色蕴就只是色蕴了。

後面理解的不對。

這裡的被執取，不是只是指這個被執取的五蘊的本身，還包括被執取的五蘊以外的五蘊。

由於佛陀的色蘊也可以被有的人執取，比如有女子因爲佛陀的色好而愛上佛陀，所以佛陀的色蘊也可以是色取蘊。

summertulip

不能认同 “佛陀只有色蘊可以叫做色取蘊”，对解脱者已经没有“取”了，应该就是色蕴了。

至于解脱者的五蕴之身可能成为其他人贪取的对象，是另一回事了。

善觀

但是歷來的解釋，五取蘊就是指被自己或他人貪取的對象啊。

解脫者沒有取，不代表所有見到解脫者的人都沒有取。

你不認同要說出理由。

我剛才引的是南傳阿毗達摩對五取蘊解釋，請再看一下：

  

节卅五：五取蕴

Pabc’upadanakkhandha: rupupadanakkhandho, vedanu-padanakkhandho, sabbupadanakkhandho, sankharupadanak-khandho, vibbanupadanakkhandho.

bc’upadanakkhandha: rupupadanakkhandho, vedanu-padanakkhandho, sabbupadanakkhandho, sankharupadanak-khandho, vibbanupadanakkhandho.

五取蕴：一、色取蕴；二、受取蕴；三、想取蕴；四、行取蕴；五、识取蕴。

节卅五之助读说明

五取蕴：这五法称为upadanakkhandha（取蕴），因为它们组成了执取的目标。佛陀说：‘无论是那一类与漏有关及会被执取的色，是过去、未来、现在等，这一切都称为色取蕴。’再次，对于其他四取蕴的定义也是如此。（《相应部》22:48/iii,48）在此，一切能被四取（见节七）所执取的五蕴成份皆名为取蕴。这包括了所有色蕴及属于世间的四名蕴。出世间的四名蕴并不属于取蕴，因为它们完全超越了执取的范围，也就是说它们不会成为贪或邪见的目标。

浪子无心

佛告犢子。如是如是。若言色是如來受想行識是如來者。無有是處。何以故。如來已斷如斯色故。受想行識。亦復如是。皆悉已斷。

佛陀已经明确说了，自己的色取蕴已断，难道因为别人有爱取，就又生起了？

精解的这一段论述是非常僵化的，和佛说不符，不可以当成依据。